Talk:Maximum dexterity bonus
Warning: Erroneous Information posted from user at 75.92.119.87 Even if a character relies on weapon finesse for their AB it is NOT affected if the character wears heavy armor. Reflex saving throws are not affected either. Can the user at 75.92.119.87 please correct the misinformation. Whether the character chooses to don a heavier suit of armor is up to the character. With uncanny dodge currently broken there would be situations where heavier armor than your dexterity modifier will allow for would be advantageous. Please remove the opinion from the article page and post in discussion page if you want a record of the opinion on the wiki. GT74 00:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC) Dexterity I'm here because I keep getting messages in my email of changes to his article. Before I unwatch myself, Dexterity bonus is affected my the armor you wear unless you wearing certain armor like mithril fullplate armor, which allows for an additional Dexterity bonus of 3 instead of 1. So a rogue can't wear fullplate armor and still have a high dexterity bonus because he won't benefit from anything because he won't be able to use his full bonus towards his reflex saves and AB for melee/range. Moreover, his dexterity based skills will be lower by the armor, but that's a different topic. -- ARHicks00 I am not disputing the dexterity bonus to AC - I am disputing everything else (reflex, AB, the right to wear heavier armor). Your post contains a lot of false information. I've just tested it in game to make myself double sure. I'm leaving this to the SysOps to take care of from here. GT74 01:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC) So have I. I'm out. -- ARHicks00 Your AB does not decrease if you are wearing heavier armour. Just because the armour restricts your max dex bonus to AC does not decrease your AB. I have tested this and know 100% that this is the case. Reflex saving throws are not affected either. "Failure to get new armor with less dexterity bonus restriction will result in no additional dexterity bonuses towards reflex saving throws and attack bonus for range attack as well as weapon finesse." I can't make this any clear than that and please post your signature when responding. --ARHicks00 :It does seem that you can't make that any clearer. That's not to say that it can't be made clearer. Would you like me to edit what you've written so it is clearer? GT74 22:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC) Please stop this little "wording war", GT74, I've reported the matter already. The description is clear and does not need to be changed. -- ARHicks. :The description is not clear and it does need to be changed for clarity's sake. People are obviously confused about what you have written and are taking the opposite meaning than you've intended (apparently). GT74 22:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC) ...No one else but you are complaining about the description, GT74. Leave the article alone. -- ARHicks00 :I haven't touched the article. Since Pain's edict my contribution has been entirely confined to the discussion page, unlike yours. Clearly people are confused by what you have written because they are posting in this discussion page refuting what you've written - they are taking the opposite meaning than the one you've intended (if i'm clear on what you've intended) because the contribution is so poorly worded. If you're not able to communicate information clearly then give people who do have that ability the opportunity to re-word it for sense. This is not a competition about who posts what. I think you'll find that the only thing that people care about is having a clear and concise information service for people who need it. It seems to me that you are the only person who care deeply about having your exact wording immortalised with your name attached to it. GT74 22:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC) Immortalized? Once again...you're the only person complaining. Leeave the article alone. -- ARHicks00 :Do you see that comment above where you've asked someone to post their name when they make a comment? Because you can't seem to recognise what's happening yourself let me explain it to you - that's someone other than me who is complaining. I would encourage everyone else who is reading this as well to make a comment as well if they don't agree with ARHicks because he seems to think that he's written some Pulitzer-quality material in the article page. :But let me get this straight... because to tell you the truth I am still confused about what you are saying because it's so damn hard to make sense of your comments. Let's say my character has a dex of 20 and weapon finesse. This character is wearing a suit of iron full plate. That suit of armor has a +1 max dexterity bonus allowed. Are you saying that this character will only get +1 DEX to AB instead of +5 to AB if they were not wearing that restrictive suit of armor? GT74 00:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC) First, Pain made this very clear for YOU and other post to sign with their signatures. It's not something I just made up. I could just as easily post from different computers and make it seem like other people as each computer has two different ip address. I have four computers in my house, each with a different ip address. One has World of Warcraft on it, and the other two have their own version of NWN 1 & 2. Secondly...what? Are you saying (in your example) the character has a Dexterity score 20/+5, but is wearing a iron fullplate armor? The iron fullplate armor will allow a maximum of 1 dexterity bonus to reflex saving throws and Attack Bonus towards range attacks or Weapon Finesse AB. The only way to get the full benefits of your 20/+5 dexterity bonus would be to wearing armor with less of Maximum Dexterity bonus restriction like studd leather armor for example. -- ARHicks00 :That unattributed comment above is not mine. Everything i've offered on this discussion page is signed by me. But anyway, okay, that's interesting. I thought that you may have known the rules but just worded your comments so badly that it came across that you didn't know the rules. But apparently you don't know the rules. ARHicks, why don't you actually try this in game instead of theorising? If you try it in game you'll soon agree that you don't lose weapon-finesse DEX AB by wearing heavier armor because you will notice that your AB doesn't reduce when you do it!!! Can I get a consensus here please? It looks ARHicks is determined to be a stubborn fool for now but I'm hoping that a chorus of voices will be able to convince him that those error-ridden comments of his should be changed. Speak up!! GT74 02:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC) Regarding: "Failure to get new armor with less dexterity bonus restriction will result in no additional dexterity bonuses towards reflex saving throws and attack bonus for range attack as well as weapon finesse.": *I agree, I find that confusing. Something like "The dexterity bonus restriction on armor only restricts the bonus to AC, and has no impact on AB" is clearer, shorter and simpler, if that's what you're trying to say. *Better still, talk about maximum dexterity bonus, which is a clear, positive phrase, and the actual phrase used in the game. *I think the problem for me is that it's made up of multiple sentence constructions that are all negatives. "Failing to get less restriction" is a messy way of saying "getting armor with a lower maximum dex bonus". On top of that, saying "failing to do something will result in something not happening" is problematic because it doesn't say what will happen (though someone could infer, it just makes it all harder). *Also, ARHicks00, you seem to be taking calmly-worded constructive criticism a little personally, imo. It seems like GT74 is attempting to be helpful to the article. :--Cornishgamehen 02:58, 27 April 2009 (UTC) Woops, looks like I have to take some of that back. *I'm with you GT74 until you call someone a stubborn fool. Better to keep logically stating your case and take the high road. *It looks like ARHicks00 is confusing partly because he's stating facts that are incorrect, at least as far as the common understanding of game mechanics. From personal testing, I can't speak for reflex saving throws, but I'm fairly certain AB is not affected by armor's max dex bonus (at least according to character sheet and logs). *Regarding: "Players, who have dexterity bonus that exceeds the maximum dexterity bonus, should exchange their armor for armor with a smaller maximum dexterity bonus." Everything you say after that indicates that you mean "should exchange their armor for armor with a higher maximum dexterity bonus." :--Cornishgamehen 03:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC) :Yes, I really shouldn't have said that given the wiki rules (and only given the wiki rules). Apologies to the wiki staff. It is a measure of my frustration. ARHicks has "previous form" as long as a very-long-thing you see so my patience wears thin with him. It's hard to understand that these (obviously untested) statements can be inserted in the first place and it defies belief how they can be defended so stoutly and the page held to ransom given that they are untested. :So... we have two opinions that say the the current statement is confusing and three opinions that say it contains information that is not correct. That surely is enough to overturn it. I'm happy for Cornishgamehen to make the necessary adjustments. ARHicks, please play the game and submit to democratic opinion. GT74 04:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC) "Failure to get new armor with less of a maximum dexterity bonus restriction will result in the character receiving no additional dexterity bonuses towards their reflex saving throws and attack bonus for range attack as well as weapon finesse." This information is patently false. The maximum dexterity bonus on armor only refers to the cap on the dexterity ability modifier that one can add to their armor class as dexterity bonus. One still receives: *the full bonus to AB for ranged attacks and attacks made with weapon finesse *the full bonus to Reflex saves. *the full bonus to skills, although the armor check penalty will reduce some of these skills (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Sleight of Hand). *full damage when using Expose Weakness This is consistent with PnP rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm). With Uncanny Dodge in its current state it could be advantageous to wear heavy armor with a high dex when fighting a Shadowdancer. Although, wearing heavy armor would be a disadvantage against touch attacks or when using the skills mentioned above. Mithdradates 08:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC) :Well, this page needs to be fixed so I'm going to do that now. I'm just going to plug Mith's comments in over the top of the material that the consensus opinion has as confusing and incorrect. I'm not sure that the intro paragraph of the article really needed expanding on but I'm wondering if ARHicks is comforted by a large volume of copy so maybe will be happy that there are still two paragraphs instead of one. GT74 18:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC) The changes were made based on the fact nothing need to be changed. The maximum dexterity bonus on armor only refers to the cap on the dexterity ability modifier that one can add to their armor class as dexterity bonus. One still receives:’ *the full bonus to skills, although the armor check penalty will reduce some of these skills (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Sleight of Hand). full damage when using Expose Weakness 1. Nothing in the original boost says you don’t get deny any of your maximum dexterity ability modifier EXCEPT when wearing inappopriate armor, which would hinder any additional AB. 2. Which has nothing to do with Maximum dexterity bonus. Read the description, the description says, Maximum dexterity bonus refers to the maximum dexterity bonus you get while wearing armor. It has nothing to do with armor penalties to skill nor does it have anything to do with skill progression. 3. Will not do full damage until you wear the appropriate armor that allows for a bonus. A bard with 16/+3 dexterity wearing mundane fullplate armor will only do +1 damage instead +3 every round. Quite messing with the article. Either let Pain decide what's right or we'll just go back and forth. -- ARHicks00 :YOU quit messing with the article. Can't you read what's written above? Four people have disputed your contribution so I edited it. Re-read what Pain wrote on his talk page in response to YOUR bad behaviour on this wiki. Play by the rules, Antoine. GT74 00:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Actually, he didn't write a current response for the mishaps, happening now. You need to read the current message I left for him on his page. ---- Do you know what a guideline is Antoine? Pain laid down some guidelines for you. I imagine he hoped that you would be clever enough to follow them so that he didn't have to waste his own time regulating every little dispute. But then maybe Pain doesn't know you very well. Here's a refresher for you. These guidelines apply to here and now: * Avoid opinions, and focus on the facts of the matter. How people "should" play the game is an opinion for example. * Do not revert other peoples edits without discussion. * If your post is reverted, you should move the discussion to the discussion page, a third person hopefully with more knowledge on the matter, or even 5 or 6 peoples input might be needed on the matter before an edit takes place. I'm going to revert your contribution again soon since it obviously contains incorrect information and opinions on how to play the game. You need to have a good hard think about what you're going to do after that. GT74 00:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC) 1. Pain doesn't you very well, but he got to know Syylk very well. 2. Since he put the rules up, you didn't even both to post explaination to why you change it nor did you even try to talk to author. You simple felt the need to change it, which is one of his rules. 3. My notes are just that, notes. My notes stay on topic. You come up behind them and try to change them. You also have habit of debunking the article like how you added the note about Dexterity bonuses to skill or expose weakness (which was wrong) Maximum Dexterity Bonus refers to the maximum dexterity bonus you can get while wearig armor. It has nothing to do with the rest of the stuff added. 4. Unfortunately, you've proven in the past you didn't know about much about you were talking about no more than I did. -- ARHicks00 If nothing else at least I hope that today's episode helps users such as Cornishgamehen and anyone else reading to understand why I have so little patience with ARHicks. There really are no words... you have to see **** in action to fully appreciate. I just hope Pain wakes up from his extended slumber soon and does something about it before this wiki goes to the dogs. I don't even think I'll bother addressing your points because I don't think you'd get it. GT74 01:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Once again, stop posting people's personal information on a wiki. Secondly, having several people the same wrong information does make it right. ---- From the last two days on this wiki alone, I'm starting to be disillusioned with unmoderated wikis. An active editorial board and editing restrictions are clearly necessary for good information. --Cornishgamehen 02:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Moderators do their jobs, they just don't moderate bickering and they only consider the article vandalize if you deface an article or erase additional information. Lastly, they do not conform to the "majority rules," if the information is incorrect. None of the information posted on your behave has been correct or had nothing to do with the article. -- ARHicks00 The problem is that you have been the one bickering with others (and now, it seems, me), you have been posting incorrect information, and you have been erasing information. Surely you see this, right? I'm not intending to insult you, but your statements are more than a little ironic. Anyway, I still have some faith left in the system, and I'll be interested to see how this all pans out. --Cornishgamehen 04:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Cleaned up entry I have edited this entry to be consistent with the game rules, if there is anything I have missed or any inaccuracies, please let me know and I'll make the edit once the data is verified. Mithdradates 22:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Yayyyyyy. Common Sense had to prevail in the end. Based on previous form ARHicks will not be seen in the Wiki again. Which should be a relief to all right-thinking people.--Thorsson 20:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC) BTW is there a cap?--Thorsson 21:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC) A cap to what? Mithdradates 05:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC) I'm guessing a cap on maximum dexterity bonus. I imagine there is a cap of +20 to AC from dex given the upper limit of 50 on attributes. But as far as I can tell even with a +12 boost item you could only get it to 49 inside 30 levels. GT74 05:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC) It's not on the Dodge AC stack, so I'm guessing it's uncapped except for the attribute limit of 50. At least if there is a cap it would most likely be 20 which is also the attribute cap. According to the armorrulestats.2da, it's set to 100 for clothing, so I suppose that's the cap, not that you could ever reach it.